Comments on: OK Historic Courthouse’s Last Chance

By: Evangeline Richardson

Evangeline Richardson — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:20:39 +0000

Do you happen to know if there were cannon’s mounted to the entrance of the court house. I have two pictures from 1942 of family and I think they might have been visiting the courthouse.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=341554&id=100000574836339
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=341541&id=100000574836339

By: Doug...I have 2 questions for you.... - OKCTalk

Doug...I have 2 questions for you.... - OKCTalk — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:35:16 +0000

[...] was inspired by a wonderful sketch found by Blair Humphreys and posted in his excellent blog here: imagiNATIVEamerica OK Historic Courthouse?s Last Chance. Blair had located this excellent sketch of the Civic Center plan submitted by Hare & Hare in [...]

By: Doug Loudenback

Doug Loudenback — Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:48:25 +0000

My article is here: http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2009/01/civic-center.html

As with most of my stuff, it will likely be edited, but it is substantially complete.

By: Doug Loudenback

Doug Loudenback — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:05:33 +0000

You’re more than welcome, Blair. It was fun looking up the stuff. Feel free to make any post with this information that you’d care to, plus whatever else you have … and I do think I’ll go ahead with an article of my own, crediting you, of course, with the initial find and inspiration! Multiple articles give diversity and different perspectives, and that’s a good thing. You come up with some terrific finds but for which I’d otherwise never have any clue. Collaboration by history nerds … you, Steve, others, is a powerful thing in digging up the old stuff. It pleases me to make a contribution in that process.

By: Blair

Blair — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:12:58 +0000

Doug – you are incredible for pulling all of this together. Thank you so much. I am thinking I may have to turn your comments into their own post! Or, if you want, you can make it a post and I will just link to it – it is afterall your work!

By the way, I have some more images on file that I believe confirm some of the ideas above. Busy with this ULI competition right now, but I will look through them soon and see if I can find out anything.

Great job! Thank you!

By: Doug Loudenback

Doug Loudenback — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:43:25 +0000

OK, I’m done researching the Oklahoman’s archives. I’ve stuck all the articles I thought worth keeping in my photobucket account at this location: http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/

Probably you understood what I’m about to say all along and it just took me time to “get it,” but I now see that the prominent building in the Hare & Hare sketch you posted above WASN’T the projected court house at all but was instead the projected city hall building. I said above that a 9/6/1935 story “carried what appears to be the same drawing you led this post with,” but I now see that I was mistaken … THAT article’s drawing added wings to the initially proposed city hall building which were not in the original … BUT … the drawing you posted DID appear in a May 1931 Oklahoman article. I’ve pieced together both articles and the sketch you posted for purposes of comparison … http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_5_19319_1935_combo.jpg

Although the 1931 Hare plan contemplated a new county courthouse AT THE LOCATION of the old courthouse, the original Hare drawing did not show what it might be like but showed the old one instead, presumably because his task was to make recommendations/concepts for the CIVIC CENTER and which did not originally envision a new county courthouse within that space. So, even though the old court house is shown in the 1931 drawing, it was not apparently contemplated that the old court house would be retained, or, at least, not necessarily so since it was contemplated that a new court house would be built in the same space. By the time the 5/1935 drawing was done, the proposed prominent building would have been a combo courthouse and city building, hence the 5 story wings … the tower was by then contemplated as the court house, if I’ve got it right. Anyway, all of the photobucket articles say much more. This has been a fun piece of history to explore.

And, by the way, it was a great game last night! Go Thunder!

By: Doug Loudenback

Doug Loudenback — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:41:09 +0000

I took some time to look through the Oklahoman’s archives today, and found several items which relate to this project which included the search word, “Hare.” I limited my search to 1/1/1933 ~12/31/1937, but, I see in one of those articles that Hare & Hare were involved with Civic Center proposals as early as 1931. I’ve not even looked closely at what I’ve saved so far, but this much you might be interested in:

In the 9/1/1935 Oklahoman, a drawing appears showing voters what they would be voting on in the pending bond election: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_9_1_1935_1.jpg … and http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_9_1_1935_2.jpg
It may be relevant that the old courthouse building is not shown in this aerial even though one can see the nearby Montgomery Wards building.

In the 9/6/1935 Oklahoman, a front page story carried what appears to be the same drawing you led this post with. I’ve saved part of the front page for illustrative purposes but have saved the associated article in readable form. Those images are here: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_9_6_1935_1.jpg … http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_9_6_1935_2.jpg … http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_9_6_1935_1.jpg

Quite possibly, although you would know better than I, the old courthouse was only coincidentally included in the Hare & Hare drawing, perhaps for perspective, and not because it had anything to do with the actual project.

A few days later, 9/9/1935, another front page article describe a compromise, I think: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_9_9_1935_1.jpg … http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_9_9_1935_2.jpg

I was able to confirm the 1944 fire: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_11_27_1944_1.jpg … http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/civiccenter/oklahoman_11_27_1944_2.jpg

There’s lots more, but I’ve not got the time right now to do the assembly. I’ve got to go see the Thunder whack the Grizzlies!

By: Nick Roberts

Nick Roberts — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:07:11 +0000

Oh, that would be my blunder. I just remembered Nichols developed OKC’s best historic neighborhoods, and Nichols developed the Plaza as well. I didn’t realize they were different Nichols’.

By: Blair

Blair — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:49:47 +0000

Nick – you’re right, there are definitely some interesting connections. In fact, from 1889 to 1950, most – if not all – of the planning that took place in Oklahoma City involved professional landscape architects and planners from Kansas City or St. Louis. Hare & Hare completed the neighborhood plans for many of the NW neighborhoods developed by Classen and G.A Nichols. J.C. Nichols was the developer behind Country Club Plaza and was one of the best developers in the country – he actually founded the Urban Land Institute. But, I don’t think he ever did a project in OKC. Not sure if that is what you were saying – I may have misread it. G.A. Nichols – of no relation that I can find – developed a number of OKCs great neighborhoods including Crown Heights and Nichols Hills.

By: Nick Roberts

Nick Roberts — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 01:27:09 +0000

Blair, I’m begging you to stop blogging about OKC’s great former masterplans of all types, because I find myself getting more and more disappointed in the current state of things. haha just kidding, keep up the great work. All of these are revelations to me.

I did some more research on my own after reading this and found out that Hare & Hare based in KC also designed the Philbrook grounds as one of its most famous projects and the one guy who developed a lot of KC’s great historic projects, including the famed Country Club Plaza in the 20s, also developed Heritage Hills and Nichols Hills in OKC. Some interesting KC-Oklahoma connections abound here, and somewhat explain why OKC feels like a Midwestern city in the south.